The Chechen journalist and legal expert Mairbek Taramov met Vafa Guluzade, who held a high post of the state adviser at three presidents of Azerbaijan . He had a long conversation with him, which we bring to attention of our readers.
The brief curriculum vitae
Vafa Guluzade was born on the 21 st of December, 1940 , in Baku .
He graduated from the Azerbaijan State University ; worked at the Academy of sciences of the Azerbaijan Republic . Then he entered the postgraduate study of the Institute of Oriental studies of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR , where he protected his master's thesis. He is a skilled orientalist-foreign-affairs-specialist, speaks the Arabian, English, Farsi, Turkish and Russian languages.
In 1969 V. Guluzade worked in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the USSR , then in different Soviet embassies. In breaks between diplomatic work he worked in the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Azerbaijan as the head of the department of culture of the Central Committee, simultaneously taking part in large diplomatic actions, devoted to regulation of the Arabian-Israeli conflict with the invitation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the USSR.
In the end of 1990 he returned to Azerbaijan in the post of the adviser of the embassy of the USSR in Algeria , and since then he worked as the state adviser at three presidents of the Azerbaijan Republic , till 1999.
On the 8 th of October, 1999 V. Guluzade resigned and became engaged in an active political activity, writing numerous articles in the press, interview and applications concerning foreign policy, settlement of the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict.
He headed the delegation of Azerbaijan in the Minsk group of the OSCE at the negotiations with the Armenian party, and was the personal representative of President G. Aliev at direct negotiations with the representative of the President of Armenia. He is also a participant of numerous summits of the OSCE, and also heads of the states.
Chechenpress
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Mairbek Taramov: - Salam Alleikum, dear Vafa. You, possibly, know about the tragedy, which has overtaken us: Chechens lose already their third leader, this time President Aslan Mashadov. How you regard the event?
Vafa Guluzade: - In this occasion I have given an interview to the newspaper "Eni Musavat". Twice I met the President of the Chechen Republic Aslan Mashadov, when he came to Baku . His second arrival was on the occasion of Geidar Aliev's birthday. The Chechen President arrived to Baku and presented Aliev with a pistol "Mauser". Aslan Mashadov said, that he hoped, that he would not need the pistol any more.
This person made a great impression upon me. There was a pure and sincere person with light, pure eyes standing in front of me. I have remembered him such. He was, as they say in Azerbaijan - "Nurly insan" - "fine person". I believe that he, probably, therefore was lost, because he trusted the light and kindness, rather than reckoned with insidiousness and enmity of Russia .
In general, speaking about the Chechen Republic , I would like to say the following…
I am a former Soviet diplomat. I often speak about the war in the Chechen Republic , and about the policy, carried out today with the present Russian management. I, as a Soviet diplomat and as a representative of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I consider this present policy unreasonable; because it is not difficult for me “to try their shoes”.
I compare… In fact all empires sooner or later collapse. The British Empire has collapsed, i.e. the British let go with peace all members of the Commonwealth, gave them independence, and then established with them economic and diplomatic communications. And they live not bad: both those, and others. I would not wait for terrible disintegration and disorder of the Russian empire as the Russian heads do. This process has already begun. I would give to all members of the Federation guarantees of their independence. First of all I would give it to the Chechen Republic and Caucasian people. It would be possible to organize (let even under the supervision of Russia ) the Caucasian Federation, into which Dagestan , the Chechen Republic , Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, etc would enter it. These people would establish Confederation between themselves. And then already it would be their business. But for the beginning it is necessary to give people full freedom.
There is no need to wait for disorder. It is necessary to give all of them independence, to establish gentlemen's attitudes, economic attitudes first of all, to refuse imperial politics of military suppression. During the last years the life on the planet has changed. Reference points, theories, priorities change every day, and the Russian management has old imperial mentality, old doctrines: they need only to push somewhere military bases and then to put there a puppet, and by means of this puppet to drink the remained blood of the suppressed people. For three hundred years this blood was drunk by the Russian empire, which Russian-Bolsheviks named prison of peoples, for 70 years - by the Soviet authority.
Once in Monte-Carlo I came out with this theme. I remember, the whole Russian delegation was sitting there. I told them, that all empires disintegrated, and there were national states left after them. Modern France was left after the French empire, after the Italian one - peninsula in the form of the Italian boot, after the British Empire there were islands of the Great Britain . And where were the borders of Russia ? You will remain without the state, and you will feel very bad. Define the borders, and give independence to others".
I thought that they were going to tear me to pieces. First there was a silence, and then the head of the Russian delegation came out and said, "You know, mister Guluzade, we with greater attention have listened to your very interesting report. Certainly, you have many interesting positions, but we can agree not with all your positions, of course".
- What you can say about not-giving of the body of the Chechen President Mashadov, whom you have named "Nurly insan", to his family?
- I think that modern Russia in comparison with imperial Russia has strongly degraded. When imperial Russia captivated sheikh Shamil, it behaved magnanimously with the enemy, having exiled him, and having sent his son to the army. Another son of Shamil was in Turkish army at war with Russians, and one more son heroically was at war at the side of Russians. That is, then Russia was strong, mighty and consequently magnanimous. And now Russia is a collapsing state and consequently it is capable more for rage, than for magnanimity.
They have behaved in relation to Aslan Mashadov body spitefully; first, he should not have been killed, second, I think, that there are some human norms. His body should be given to his family. And their statements, that Aslan Mashadov was a terrorist, are extremely incorrect.
In this occasion I said once, that I did not consider any Chechen to be a terrorist. People, who on their own land are at war for their own independence, cannot be terrorists. If Aslan Mashadov had gone, for example, to Iraq and blown up something there, then, probably, I would have said, that he was a terrorist. I have my own approach to the estimation of a terrorist. I consider a terrorist to be a person, who has lost any belief in goods and validity, despaired, nothing expecting from life. Therefore he is ready to sacrifice his life at any moment and to kill those, whom he considers to be enemies. Terror is an extreme reaction of people to harm, injustice, and suppression. It is possible to struggle with it eradicating anger, injustice, and suppression.
In fact he was at home, on his land, and terrorists are those, who came to his house. Lev Tolstoy wrote about it in his book “Hadzhi-Murat”. He with bitterness described how Russian soldiers had profaned a mosque, and he named them with the most obscene epithets. Unfortunately, the Chechen Republic now collides not with Russia of Lev Tolstoy or Pushkin, but with Russia of those generals, who even then killed, forced, burned down, and now are engaged in the same.
- What can you say about the unattractive role of the West, and in general of the world community in the Russo-Chechen war?
- The matter is that I, as a person, who for a long time was engaged in politics (I went to the Soviet diplomacy in 1969), can say, to my great regret, that there is no need to speak about any fair policy. There is no state about which it would be possible to say, that it carries out a fair policy. Let's admit, that France , Italy , Spain , are especially great powers, but all of them have great-power interests.
Russia meanwhile, all the same, remains the opponent of the USA and the West. Therefore they, basically, deeply in their soul, approve what Chechens weaken Russia with their heroism and unshakable struggle. The war in the Chechen Republic decomposes the Russian army, it sustains huge losses. Simple Russian people wish to get rid of fear that their sons will be sent to the Chechen Republic and will be killed. They do not want the war in the Chechen Republic . Wars are wanted by imperial circles of Russia . But there is not such a force in the country, which would support the validity.
Look at Azerbaijan . We are partners of America ; we support global interests of America . The USA are already at the Caspian sea, the American oil companies are here, but at the same time the United States of America, meanwhile, do not move a finger to release our occupied territories. And the United Nations… Though they demand withdrawal of all occupational armies from all occupied Azerbaijan territories, but the USA in the United Nations has not achieved even to condemn the aggressors publicly.
In fact it is an aggression! Moreover, America perfectly knows that true aggressors are Russia . And Armenia is only a country, the lever with which Russia manipulates. Now the USA say, that they will never recognize Nagornyy Karabah, that they recognize territorial integrity of Azerbaijan .
The United States help in a global plan to the people of the Chechen Republic trying to push Russia out from the Caucasus . In the same way, they will push Russia out from the Central Asia . In the world there is a process of transformation of Russia from a global power into a regional one. As a global power, Russia could apply for the control of the whole Caucasus , the whole Central Asia , for great interests in Europe , etc. But Americans see all this.
Yugoslavia was a stronghold of Russia in Europe , and now Milosevic - the friend and the brother of the Russian management - is imprisoned, and Russians have done nothing to take him out, because America has power. Another example is Iraq - the country, which actually belonged to Russia . In fact Russia has eaten billions of Iraq dollars, having got rid of tons of scrap metal to it as arms. Russia undividedly used the Iraq oil. And now Russia has renounced from Iraq .
And look at the last events… Putin went to Europe where he was, so to say, taken in hands, and he had to support the withdrawal of the Syrian armies from Lebanon . Thus, Putin has betrayed the closest friend and ally Bashar Asad.
That is there are global processes in the world, and I look at the situation in the Caucasus with hope. In this connection I do not consider the blood shed by Chechen people to be vain.
- Excuse me Vafa, I shall interrupt you. But in fact during the first war there was a support to the Chechen people from the People front of Azerbaijan , which then was at the authority, but now there is no help…
- You know, the People front in Azerbaijan had a populism authority. And are not Chechens supported now? Ask any normal Azerbaijani, Caucasian - they support the struggle of Chechens, their soul hurts for the Chechen Republic .
But at the same time the leader PFA Abulfaz Elchibei could not keep the authority, because he had a populism authority. And the present authority, Geidar Aliev's authority, is more rational, it reckons with the Russian factor, and that Azerbaijan , 20 % of the territory of which is occupied, cannot collide directly with Russia , because of the Chechen Republic . That is, we cannot help the Chechen Republic , as we are in a trouble and we also need help.
- The world community has developed a convenient formulation about the Chechen Republic - "the internal affair of Russia ". Whether there can be genocide in someone's internal affair?
- In this occasion I repeatedly came out at great forums where I declared, that only a national state has the right to the territorial integrity. An empire cannot have territorial integrity. And in practice, the world community reckons with Russia , as it is a nuclear power, and recognizes such a state. Russia is not the state! Russia cannot have a territorial integrity.
In fact we also were a part of Russia, Central Asia was a part of Russia, but all this was broken up suddenly and now Russia, normal Russians - no, not narrow-minded chauvinists and not empire-supporters, - do not dream of restoration of the former territorial integrity within the boarders of the Soviet Union. Right? So, normal Russians consider the century of the empire to be short and disintegration of Russia to be inevitable.
- Unlike you, a certain part of people declares, that there is no necessity for such huge victims, which are put on the altar of Freedom by Chechens.
- I shall tell you a usual everyday situation as an example…
A person meets a robber at dark night. Some people will prefer to take off everything, and to give it to the robber, and to leave naked. And others will prefer to fight this gangster; it does not matter for him how. It is already the internal essence of the person, the nature.
I consider Chechen people to be special. First, you are mountaineers. Mountains are freedom, force, and inaccessibility. Therefore Chechens are strong, unapproachable people, unlike others. Unlike you, Azerbaijanis are people of other structure. You see, 20 % of our land is conquered – it is an eternal pain for me…
And Chechens simply can not behave in another way. Russia should consider it. Russian cannot break these people, because rebelliousness is incorporated in the genetic code of Chechens. The aspiration to Freedom, Independence is also a genetic code of the Chechen people.
It seems to me, Russians realize it. I do not think that they trust any Kadyrovs or someone else. Russians understand that at any moment they can turn away, because pro-Russian Chechens under influence of some factors have decided to cooperate, but under influence of other critical factors, Chechens can turn away from their present owners.
Therefore, whoever would convince me, I remain true to the conclusion that Chechen people are heroic people! And they will struggle up to the end!
Chechen people have lost already three presidents! Well, so what? The war has not stopped because of it. Whether the struggle has weakened after Dzhohar Dudaev's death? No, on the contrary, the war accepts other forms. Now after Aslan Mashadov's death the war will accept more rigid forms.
- Vafa, and whether you see the form of the state system of Russia, in which there would be such place for the Chechen Republic, at which periodic destruction of Chechens would stop?
- You know, how I shall answer you? Russia repeatedly offered Azerbaijan the joint state with Karabah, and meanwhile it does not wish to have the joint state with the Chechen Republic . That is, those principles, which it offers to us, it does not wish to offer to the Chechen people. In fact then all problems will be solved very quickly: the war will stop, and transport will work, and pipelines will function. And if it does not happen, the Russian transport highways and pipelines will be under an impact – this is the law of a war.
- There is an opinion, that the war in the Chechen Republic weakens Russia . Whether the management of Russia does not understand the obvious fact?
- Russia is an empire so far, it has an imperial thinking. Therefore this empire believes that if it gives freedom to somebody from the members, then also all others will demand the same and then, ostensibly something terrible will happen - the empire will collapse. I think that Russia should construct new, meeting modern requirements attitudes in the Federation in order to survive.
- And do not you think, that Russia continues the war in the Chechen Republic in order not to lose influence, which it has in Azerbaijan , Georgia ?
- It had an influence. And now all these hopes begin to die out in connection with the American expansion in the Caucasus .
Russia loses the influence practically everywhere. Now they live as Hitler lived in 1945 in hope for a miracle-weapon. They think that, supposedly, we, Russians, shall create such a miracle-weapon, and the whole world will shudder. Then, supposedly, Russia will declare necessity of reconstruction of the Soviet Union , returning of Yugoslavia to former frameworks, to make Afghanistan a socialist republic. Well, there is no need to speak about Chechens - they should not be deported at all, they can be destroyed with one impact. But it will not happen any more!
- And why have not the authorities, leaders of opposition expressed condolences in occasion of Aslan Mashadov's death. In fact the management of Azerbaijan accepted him at the top-level twice.
- As far as I am concerned I have condoled in the newspaper "Eni Musavat". Well, and by and large, there were not official condolences of authorities of Azerbaijan , because of fear to worsen the attitudes with Russia .
- Vafa, you consider the national-liberation struggle in the Chechen Republic to be a fair war, so why is not this fair war supported?
- Because a nuclear power is at war against you. You are so courageous people that you do not even imagine, with who you are at war. There is approximately half a million of Chechens left, and you are at war with 150 million people, armed with both nuclear and other super weapon. Russia is the country, which for its whole history conquered and killed Moslems. You are at war with the most anti-Muslim country in the world.
And then, Russia is reckoned, because so far it is a strong nuclear power. Though its army has weakened; now Russia cannot afford even one million army instead of 5 million Soviet army. This army collapses, recruits are capable for nothing, there are not enough contractors, etc. others have games with Russia, and Russia first of all puts a condition, that they would not interfere with the Chechen Republic, that this is an internal affair of Russia. Therefore everyone agrees, though in fact they do not agree.
- If it had not been for the 11 th of September, would the situation be another, and would there be more pressure on Russia because of the Chechen Republic ?
- I think that if there had not been for the 11 th of September, there would have been something else. America is also a great nuclear power and after the disintegration of the Soviet Union , during the first moment America became the first one. Remember Clinton 's period. America sharply enriched, because Russian capitals, stolen money, billions went to America .
And do you know that there are 43 billionaires only in Moscow ? Can you imagine? For two hundred with superfluous years of existence of America in New York there are less than billionaires, than for ten years in Moscow ? Russians plunder their country and enrich America .
But then the military-industrial complex “began to howl” in America: the congress has cut off charges for military needs, because there is no enemy any more, no money is spent on military needs, and in fact America is operated by the military-industrial complex. Then the image of an enemy became necessary. And so it appeared. And that is why I say, that if it had not been for the 11 th of September, there would have been something else.
All the same it would have been the same as it is now. Therefore now the Chechen Republic should make a decision: what is favorable for it and what not. That is it is necessary to decide - whether the Chechen Republic can lay down the arms and wait, when natural processes will lead Russia to the logic end.
- Vafa, here I do not agree with you. You see, the matter is that if Chechens even will say, that they surrender and lay down the arms, they will be killed all the same. Today Russia proclaims various amnesties and calls for laying down the arms. What happens to those, who trust the Russian propagation? – The amnestied are detained at address "zachistki" and shot without any court and investigation. It is the KGB tactics.
There is another, very vivid historical example. In 1944 in February, 23, Stalin authorities behaved with such cruelty and brutality to our people. They subjected women, old men, children to deportation, when men were at war, protecting this Stalin's authority.
- It is true. I also think the same. I have not heard any reasonable offer from Russia concerning the Chechen Republic . Well, they could offer you at least what they offer us concerning Karabah.
- What do you think, why the Caucasus is so separated, in fact it is so obvious, that it should be one organism?
- First of all, it is necessary to remember that the Caucasus was won by Russia and dismembered, and the imperial principle "Divide and dominate!" triumphed here for hundreds of years. This principle meant that hostility to each other was brought up in all Caucasian people. You will be surprised, if you go to Azerbaijan remote places - still there are people among our population there, who have received the Soviet and anti-Turkish education, concerning to Turks with hostility, while we, Azerbaijanis, are ethnic Turks. In fact the Azerbaijani is a conditional name, by the place of residing - Azerbaijan . In Iran our fellow tribesmen name themselves only Turks.
- When and how do you think the Karabah problem will be solved?
- The Karabah problem was created by the Russian empire to influence Armenia and Azerbaijan , and by means of it to influence the Caucasian policy as a whole. And we shall not see signing of the peace treaty between two countries until this empire disintegrates and becomes a democratic state. The problem will not be solved! I can declare it responsibly - even if all occupied territories will be given to Armenia , present Russia will not allow to sign a peace treaty.
The example to it is the Istanbul summit of the OSCE in 1999, before which I resigned. In fact then Geidar Aliev with great concessions wished to solve the Karabah problem. I told him: "They will not allow it, dear President!"
- Who will not allow? - Geidar Aliev asked.
- Russia !
- How will not it allow?
- I do not know, how. But I know that it will not allow, and you will see it.
I left the post.
And in two weeks the Armenian parliament was shot. And it was the answer to Geidar Aliev's desire to settle the Karabah problem.
- Do you think that it was the answer of the Kremlin?
- Not only I think so. Everybody thinks so. Americans think so, Germans, and Frenchmen. Everyone says that it was an operation of the GRU. It is necessary to remember here, that all power structures of Armenia were created by Russia . Besides, the party Dashnaktsutyun is a child of Russia , to be more exact, its special services. Plus to everything there is an organization "Veterans of the Karabah war" in the Nagornyy Karabah, - it is a Russian, so to say, special unit. They are able to make any act of terrorism and to punish any Armenian head, who will dare to solve anything independently without the consent of Moscow .
When Vazgen Sarkisyan, Demirchyan and Kocharyan thought, that they could operate independently, first two men were shot right in the Armenian parliament, and Kocharyan was spoken to.
- They say that the West does not invest in unstable region. Why is the West engaged in the lining of the oil pipeline in unstable conditions when there is the Karabah problem, near the unstable South-Ossetic region and Abkhazia? Do not you consider the western project Baku-Jeihan to be an adventure?
- I think that the West is sure in its power. The West knows, that it supervises Russia enough, and that there is Russia behind this instability and conflicts, and that Russia will not dare to strike on western interests. Well, and if Russia dares to hit the western interests, the West will even more strongly hit on the interests of Russia . For example, the West can arrange a default in Russia - in fact everybody knows, that means of payment in Russia is a dollar, and it means, that Russia is not so independent, as it would like to. It depends on the USA .
Therefore the USA is sure, that the Kremlin will not dare to order to Armenians, Ossets, Abkhazians, or their mercenary Chechens to attack the pipeline BTD. Besides, there are applications, that armies of the NATO are necessary for protection of the pipeline. And it, in its turn, legitimates the presence of the armies of the NATO in the Caucasus . That is, what I have predicted earlier happens.
- But in fact thus, by means of the pipeline it was possible to solve the problem of Karabah and the occupied territories.
- No, it not so. In fact I have said, that the Karabah conflict was created by the Russian empire, and present situation "neither peace, nor war" is quite suitable for it to influence both on Azerbaijan and on Armenia . We cannot agree by the Karabah problem with Russia , because a weak state cannot count on an equal in rights arrangement with a strong one. It concerns human attitudes too. From my experience I know, that a weak can never agree with a strong. The strong will always do in own way and will deceive.
That is why Aslan Mashadov was lost… Because he thought, that he could agree and achieve humanly peace with Russians. However his calculations turned out to be wrong, as the strong will always do as he wants.
- How, do you think, the war in the Chechen Republic , which by many attributes already becomes a Caucasian one, will end?
- I think, the war will proceed by guerrilla methods. Already everyone sees, that the population of Dagestan , Kabardino-Balkaria, Ingushetia, Karachaevo-Circassia is involved in this war. Dissatisfied young men from Tatarstan, Bashkiria come there. That is, while Russia manages the Caucasus in the imperial way, elements, dissatisfied with Russia , will feed the Chechen Resistance. And it will take place for a long time.
I wish to say one more thing, America becomes more and more powerful in the world, and those peoples, who will appear under its protectorate, will be happy.
- Just a minute! But in fact if to judge by the last events, America denies Islam. So what with Moslems?
It is not so. If Chechens receive independence by means of America , and Americans will understand, that the Chechen Republic can be a factor of stability in the Caucasus , I am sure, that Americans will not be against Islam in the Chechen Republic . You have another situation in the Chechen Republic . Your Islam is a freedom of worship, and Americans are enough educated and clever not to touch your freedom of worship. You are not going to export Islam to Baku or somewhere else. Your problem with Moscow is not Islam, but independence. America , I assure you, will be for your independence.
I think, that Chechens, first of all, should acquire one true: to be isolated in the world means destruction. Chechens should be as much as possible opened and accessible to the world. What does it mean in practice? For example, I do not make namaz. And you pray five times a day. In this sense, for example, it would be not necessary to put pressure upon me. It is my private affair and my right. You can establish your laws, your rules in your society, but you should not deprive other people of the right to make the choice, because Islam excludes violence in problems of belief.
It is possible to argue concerning, whether America denies Islam - nevertheless I think, Moslems there feel much more freely, than in Russia . More likely, America by virtue of the geographical and historical isolation perceives Islam too superficially, does not realize it to the end, and probably not always wishes to realize, especially when some "hawks" do not wish to lose such a tool as a multicolor level of terrorist danger.
In fact if to look statistically, much more people are lost because of shooting in American schools or drunkenness at the wheel, than because of terrorism. Nevertheless, nobody will develop such a campaign against alcoholism. The present understanding of Islam by America is frequently primitive - we shall remember, how before the Iraq campaign everybody began to argue like this: we enter Iraq , Shiites and Kurds will support us, a small group of Saddam's Supporters and Sunnite radicals do not make any difference, and so the success is provided.
What is the result of such primitive understanding, all of us can see now. The impression was made, that some politicians in America had hastily read through the directory "Islam for Dummies" - (it is an extremely popular series of books-directories in America created for those, who wish to familiarize hastily with this or that theme, having spent minimum of efforts and time).
So, such simplified understanding of Islam and the Near East with its inconceivable problems is an inadmissible luxury for the country, which applies for leadership in the world. In my opinion, the USA , by virtue of the same historical features, is much less "numbed" in stereotypes than Russia and much more flexible country. And I hope there will be certain corrective amendments in present rhetoric of the American politicians, and the mistrust, which exists now in Moslems to America , will not turn into a precipice.
- Dear Vafa, you were a brilliant diplomat in the countries of the East, you in perfection know the Arabian language, know ayats of the Koran and hadises, you are honest and decent. That is, you could have become an irreplaceable adviser for those governments, in arising young independent states of the former USSR , even in the Chechen Republic .
- I had a certain period, when I was so indignant with the policy of Russia in the Chechen Republic up to such a degree, that I was ready to leave for America and, having declared myself to be the ambassador of the Chechen Republic to explain to the world the events taking place there.
- Last question. After Aslan Mashadov's death the President of the Chechen Republic became a young man, a soldier, alim, Sadulaev Abdul-Halim. What is your the most important advice to the new Chechen leader.
- First of all your new leader should protect life of Chechens - participants of the Resistance movement. That is, not to risk in vain, not doing any desperate acts of terrorism, as it was during the capture of Budyonnovsk - this way will not lead to success.
For example, if there was such a situation, where he could have a small victory with great losses, there is no need to risk life of people. Let Russia believe today, that it has won, that the Resistance is crushed. And Chechens in the meantime should wait for their time. Freedom can come itself as it was in the Southern Caucasus , as the result of disintegration of the USSR . In fact, no empire is eternal.
The interrogator - Mairbek Taramov, for Chechnpress
Publication time: 27 March 2005, 00:01
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